Facts matter, but feelings matter more. If you win their hearts…you win their heads. 2. Play the ball…and the man.

You may recognize Mehdi Hasan from one of his interviews with controversial political figures on his show on MSNBC (and previously, Al Jazeera English), such as John Bolton or Michael Flynn, many of which became viral sensations. What stands out in these interviews is Hasan’s ability to hold powerful people to account, not letting them obfuscate the truth with evasive answers—he’s impeccably well-prepared to challenge omissions and half-truths, and always “brings the receipts.” In our conversation below, we discuss how to use storytelling and humor to your advantage, while keeping in mind that usually less is more, and why you might not necessarily want to win every argument, but how to be equipped to come out on top when you do. You cite a lot of behavioral science through the book. Is there anything you’ve learned that made you think you should approach the art of persuasion differently? Mehdi Hasan: The easy answer to that is I am arrogant in many walks of life, but not all of them. I’m not arrogant enough to pretend that this is a book about science, or that I am a science journalist or a scientist. I’ve just spent the last three years of this pandemic making a focus of my journalism the importance of actually following science and elevating scientists and not having amateurs and ignoramuses and pseudoscientists tell us about masks or vaccines or social distancing. So I would be the last person to pretend that I know a great deal about science. I know very little about science, and I’m humble about that.

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So that’s reason number one: I’ve had to learn every debating technique in this book to be able to step in front of the camera and challenge leaders from around the globe. Dave Nussbaum: The book is titled Win Every Argument: The Art of Debating, Persuading, and Public Speaking. One of the questions I had on a very basic level is why “the art” and not “the art and science” of doing so, because you include a lot of science in the book? Mehdi Hasan is an award-winning journalist and the host of The Mehdi Hasan Show on MSNBC. He has argued with presidents and prime ministers, celebrities and activists, from across the globe. Arguments are everywhere – and, especially given the fierce debates we’re all embroiled in today, everyone wants to win. In this riveting guide to the art of argument, Mehdi Hasan shows you how to communicate with confidence, rise above the tit for tats on social media, and triumph in a successful and productive debate in the real world.

Mehdi is a generationally talented interviewer. He has mastered his craft, and in this book, he generously spills his secrets.”You could say my father is a living, breathing embodiment of the dictum outlined by John Stuart Mill in his classic philosophical treatise On Liberty: I’m not saying you should win every argument. I’m saying, here’s what you do if you want to win an argument or, more importantly, if you need to win an argument. To do that you have to use language that engages with their emotions; you have to be willing to show your own emotions, your passion for the argument; and, above all else, you have to be able to tell stories. As Plato is said to have remarked: “Those who tell stories rule society.” We, humans, love a great narrative. The human brain is hardwired, say experts, not for long lists of facts, but for storytelling.

Whether I am arguing with a politician over Middle East policy or arguing with my kid over how much ice cream they can have for dessert, I always try to have three main points. Three killer arguments. A, B, C. One, two, three. It’s interesting to understand how it works. But sometimes our intuitions are misguided, right? We have ideas about what should work and sometimes it doesn’t, or not nearly as well as you think it might. So, when host Jonathan Dimbleby came to me for an answer to that provocative question from the audience, this is how I answered. I said it was “absurd” to claim Abu Qatada could not be prosecuted in a UK court. Why? It was a cold, wintry evening in rural southwest England in February 2012. I had been invited to join BBC Radio 4’s flagship political panel show, Any Questions? The show is broadcast in front of a live audience that is allowed to ask questions of the panelists, who tend to be a mix of politicians and pundits. My concern is for the people with facts and truth. Do they know how to communicate that? Are they able to win those arguments?Arguments help us solve problems, uncover new ideas we might not have considered, and nudge our disagreements toward mutual understanding. A good argument, made in good faith, has intrinsic value – and can also simply be fun. I was curious to speak to Hasan to learn more about how he brings a scientific grounding to the art of persuasion. In particular, Hasan emphasizes that logic is only one element of an effective strategy, and that one ignores the importance of emotion at one’s own peril.